Looks like ID protection is up to us

So FDBryant, you go to a web site that offers to sell you something nifty, and you provide not only your card number but your PIN as well. That would be great for the bank - their liability when they receive the correct PIN is not governed by the the credit card laws. You are now at the mercy of your bank.

Good luck!

I think credit card fraud could be seriously curtailed if they would just use PIN's across the board whether on the web or at a register.

pfft.... I'd rather use finger print scans than do a PIN entry.

So FDBryant, you go to a web site that offers to sell you something nifty, and you provide not only your card number but your PIN as well. That would be great for the bank - their liability when they receive the correct PIN is not governed by the the credit card laws.

That is an interesting point. I'm not sure in the United States if that is how it would work by law. My guess is the liability wouldn't change or your responsibility would be similar to the ATM use. Laws can be changed and of course it would be in the self-interest of the credit card companies to extend the zero liability policies they already. I think overall fraud would go down with a PIN system. It would be interesting to see what the rate of fraud is with a PIN.

pfft.... I'd rather use finger print scans than do a PIN entry.

I like the coolness factor involved but I think it is probably expensive to implement, prone to mechanical failure, changes in your fingerprint, and probably difficult for online use.

I think the best idea might be an implantation of the SecurID system. Basically you carry a token that generates a random number every minute. When you use your credit card, you'll look at the token and enter the number on it. To provide further security you can also have a secret PIN you select that you enter with the number on the token. The biggest problem I with it is I wouldn't want to have to carry around a bunch of key fobs. One possible solution involves running the random number generator on a cell phone or other electronic device. Another solution I see on the horizon is from Verisign embedding a strip of E-Ink on the credit card itself and generating the random number at the time of use.

Ultimately, while it may shift the liability on to you I think it is better in the long run than our current system which does nothing to secure us but absolve us.

So instead of sending your PIN to the website, you send your fingerprints to the website?!

The credit card (VISA, MasterCard + Amex & Discover) associations are not fond of the federally imposed liability limitation. What would prompt a bank to lobby to impose a legal limit on its liability? I hope no one will ever submit an ATM PIN to a web site. Someone who scans his fingerprint and sends that to a website is likely to get what he deserves.

It's disappointing that people are responding to an article about identity theft with stories of credit card fraud. Be happy that you are protected from fraudulent use of your credit card online - VISA and Mastercard hold the merchant liable for any disputed charges (your bank could try to collect $50, but I don't think any do that unless they suspect you're scamming). Submit only your credit card number (not a check/debit card!), exp date, 3-4 card verification code printed on the card, and your telephone number and billing address. If the site asks you for a password or something like your mother's maiden name, make up something bogus and write it down. (Make sure you don't use the same password that accesses your online banking!)

Identity theft involves the issuance of credit cards, mortgages, business licenses, etc. under your name. In that case, you don't find out until a collection agent finds your address associated with the assumed name and tells you about an account or judgment that you never had anything to do with. Those ones are really a drain to prove and can seriously affect your credit, even land you in court to prove that you are not the one who signed the documents.

It's disappointing that people are responding to an article about identity theft with stories of credit card fraud.

What is disappointing? Credit card fraud is identity theft. When someone steals your credit card number and uses it they are committing credit card fraud. In order to use the credit card they are representing themselves as you. That is identity theft. Not to mention the seed itself is about credit card fraud.

The credit card (VISA, MasterCard + Amex & Discover) associations are not fond of the federally imposed liability limitation.

That might be true but it does benefit them and they know it. They voluntarily extend those protections to debit cards that they back.

I don't understand your objection to requiring that people verify they are who they say they are when they use a credit card. It is nice I won't be held responsible if my card is used fraudulently. I think you think this equates to a no harm no foul system. The thing is harm is done. Every time they write off a charge to fraud that costs someone somewhere. Since it isn't me that means either the credit card company pays it or my guess is they do not pay the merchant. Their is also of course the cost of processing this, not to mention getting the police involve and the costs involved there. Ultimately that cost comes back to me in the form of higher prices for goods and services.

Not holding me liable for fraud is nice. I'd rather prevent identity theft and fraud though by providing methods which allow the merchant to verify I am who I say I am when I use my credit card.

The conversation isn't disappointing to me either, but nowar does bring up valid points. ID theft can involve far more than just credit card fraud.

Identity theft involves the issuance of credit cards, mortgages, business licenses, etc. under your name. In that case, you don't find out until a collection agent finds your address associated with the assumed name and tells you about an account or judgment that you never had anything to do with. Those ones are really a drain to prove and can seriously affect your credit, even land you in court to prove that you are not the one who signed the documents.

This happened to my husband. And I have suffered with check fraud. It can be incredibly upsetting to learn of any of these forms of ID theft, and it is sometimes very challenging to deal with them.

Fortunately for us, we had filed a police report when things were first stolen from our storage trailer. That made it much easier to prove that we were legit. Still, when you get a letter from an attorney telling you that you are liable for court proceedings due to nonpayment of thousands of dollars of credit that you had nothing to do with, that can send your blood pressure up a notch or two. Another fortunate thing for us, the police caught that guy and prosecuted him. I can only hope that we don't have to deal with any of this again. It can be a real mess.

So instead of sending your PIN to the website, you send your fingerprints to the website?!

Not a website, a POS. You can't really steal a fingerprint unless you cut it off of me, and if you could I suspect that it would cost about as much to make as there is money from that person to steal.

Identity theft involves the issuance of credit cards, mortgages, business licenses, etc. under your name. In that case, you don't find out until a collection agent finds your address associated with the assumed name and tells you about an account or judgment that you never had anything to do with. Those ones are really a drain to prove and can seriously affect your credit, even land you in court to prove that you are not the one who signed the documents.

good point, but I think a majority of us here generally think in terms fo credit card fraud because it's the most talked about kind of ID theft. The others you listed may be considered a little too 'white collar', infrequent, and inaccessible to the common person to be played up as much as CC fraud. Though... I can't in anyway discredit the validity of your concern.

paypal offers an instant use credit card..

I didn't know that.

and many banks offer "safe credit cards"

I knew that Bank of America offers this, but didn't know other banks do. Haven't seen it offered by my bank, but I may go back and check it out now. Thanks for the info.

it isnt easy to find.. it is new. it is called paypal secure card to find it on paypal, login.. on your account page you will see something called paypal plugin on top left. thats it, it's pretty cool. you can generate a CC number that is perminate for the same site.. like those that save that info for easy shopping. or generate one time numbers.
and if you use paypal alot check out their keychain dongle.. they are selling it at a loss, it works at some banks and ebay.. it generates a random password every 30 seconds that is tied to your login.. it's cooler than i make it sound.

That is a very useful tip Joules. Very valuable to know in this day and age. Must go do something...

no fees for this service.
unlike most other services like it.

both of you are right and thats part of the point of the virtual cards.
the virtual card works everywhere visa does
where as pay pal only works at sites that support paypal (a smaller subset)
with this new service.. you could use paypal at traditional over the phone catalog ordering and the person on the other end will have no clue that you dont have an actual factual visa card in front of you.
the only places you cant use it.. is places that need the phyiscal card.. some food delivery, most grocccery stores.. etc.

lol the echo was good for comic relief.. and we have all been there.

should meantion 2 things as well
you can also get a physical visa from paypal.. that you can use in those places i mention.
Also still do your own research.. I am sounding like a paypal fan boy but in reality there are many issues i have with paypal.
one their privacy policy, allows the sharing of info with law enforcement without the need for a warrent. (or used to i havent checked recently and not really worried but I dont like the slippery slope of this, especially the lack of warrent could allow it to be easier for people to pose as the police to get your valuible finacial info, but i dont think this has happened yet.)
two as of last week anyway.. their links for getting credit card and such went through double click, which is an advertising/information agrigating firm now owned by google.. this appears odd for a company trying to give solutions to people to prevent id theft.
They have locked up some charieties and other people from getting their money for a very long time, becasue alarms were raised at the amount of money that was going through paypal. I understand their concern but the time frames to clear it up can be excessive.
There are some other issues.. i suggest you look into before you jump on the paypal wagon.

Paypal has a spotty record at best and personally I prefer not to use them. One reason for me is using Paypal probably negates your right to a dispute a charge. When you buy something through PayPal your paying them to provide a service to pay the vendor. Well when you do a chargeback it is for if a service or good isn't provided and you cannot resolve the issue with the merchant (and that they are in the wrong). Well technically the charge is to Paypal, not the vendor which means they've provided the service you charged for (at least that is my interpretation of the situation). To be fair the couple of times I've had to press a chargeback I have gotten my money back - but Paypal grumbles about it.

I have always used Papal and have found it just right. In fact, I was conned out of $1500 in my early ignorant days of using it, by an unscrupulous vendor whom the police later arrested, trying to buy a laptop in the UK. I got my money back a month later from Paypal without any quibbles. Excellent service.

I love its simplicity and the fact that it can be easily used to buy and sell for personal use.

Please don't just pay the total bill! See whether the charges are ones that you made! Otherwise, you may be buying the fraudster's inventory of video games!

The moral, guard your mail, guard your personal information, don't be too quick to let others use your computer and be wary even of those you think you know.

True, but I've always felt that it shoudl not be that way. I'm sick of seeing people get screwed out of more money with things like "fraud protection". That kind of stuff is what CC companies should do for free if they want to have the full trust of card users. This isn't to say that people should not also closely guard their stuff, but charging us to do what they should already be doing isn't something I'm keen on.

I have an ATM Debit card that I've only used twice - to order parts for both of my computers. I used it, and then called my bank to deactivate them until I gave them written notice or went physically to the bank (like if I were to go on a pre-planned long trip). It sounds more tedious than it is, I know. Normally I pay cash for everything - my car, my rent, my TV.... everything I can. Just so this doesn't happen. Well, that and so I never really find myself in a lifestyle outside of my means - there is a lot of that these days too.

ormally I pay cash for everything - my car, my rent, my TV.... everything I can. Just so this doesn't happen. Well, that and so I never really find myself in a lifestyle outside of my means - there is a lot of that these days too.

Shawn,

Totally agree, pay cash, when you run out of cash...stop spending!

I'm waiting forhte horrors of going to the 'new gold standard' of credit only. That silly visa credit card comerical where the entire system of people goes nuts because someone pays cash isn't true. I can't tell you how many times I've been stuck inline while people either argue that their card DOES work because "its not at limit" or "i put money on it yesterday"... or because of an overloaded system or a crashed system - "sorry, the card machine is down"...

AND... I'm not fond if credit card companies tracking my spending selling consumer data to marketing groups so that they can concoct more lucrative ads to make me use the card more often. Bow down I say, the almighty dollar speaks unto thee.

Well I can't disagree with the idea of using cash as much as possible to keep a person out of debt.

That said credit cards can offer a number of benefits if used properly. Primary advantage being rewards. I personally have been getting $200+ back in cash for a few years now. Many cards will also double manufacturer warranties on products purchased with them, offer car rental insurance, purchase protection against theft or damage as well as other benefits. By law I'm not responsible if my card is used fraudulently(well technically I can be responsible for $50), and I've disputed charges to have them reversed when a purchase did work not out the way it should. Which is why I'll use a credit card only for an online purchase. I know they say a MC/Visa debit card has the same protection, but I rather like knowing the force of law behind a CC.

Not having a credit card unfortunately isn't protection against ID theft. My father had his SSN stolen and used to open lines of credit that ruined his credit rating.

Of course the key to this is using the credit card properly. That means being a credit card deadbeat or in other words paying it off every month (I actually pay my cards every week). Don't let the availability of credit cause you to live outside your means. If you find you can't pay them off each month - stop using them till you can get them paid off and spending under control (or stop altogether). If you don't think you have the discipline to use a credit card properly then don't - better to use cash than go into debt.

Oh and don't ever pay for one of those protection programs. As I said, by law you can only be held responsible for $50 if use fraudulently. You can also check your own credit report for free at least once a year (3 times if you only check one credit agency at a time) - which you should be doing anyway.

I personally have been getting $200+ back in cash for a few years now.

And how much have you spent in 'earning' $200 back.

You can also check your own credit report for free at least once a year (3 times if you only check one credit agency at a time) - which you should be doing anyway.

And every credit check goes against your credit.

Many cards will also double manufacturer warranties on products purchased with them, offer car rental insurance, purchase protection against theft or damage as well as other benefits.

Not for free they won't. Any time a company incurs a cost, that cost trickles back to the consumer.

My wife has a few credit cards, but they're only to establish credit. She uses them to pay the bills and then I pay off the card.

I personally have been getting $200+ back in cash for a few years now.

And how much have you spent in 'earning' $200 back.

No more than I would have anyway. As I mentioned I don't buy things just because I have a credit card to do so. I also pay off my credit cards every week. I'd actually do a little better if I paid them off monthly since I could earn the interest in my bank - but it works better for me to pay weekly. The net result is I'm using a charge card to pay cash instead of credit. As I said the key is using cards responsibly, something I admit many people do not do.

You can also check your own credit report for free at least once a year (3 times if you only check one credit agency at a time) - which you should be doing anyway.

And every credit check goes against your credit.

Here is what FICO says on the issue: Not all credit inquiries count toward your FICO® score. When you check your credit report, you may notice that a number of credit inquiries have been made, sometimes from businesses that you don't know. But the only inquiries that count toward your FICO® score are the ones that result from your applications for new credit. * Inquiries that count toward your FICO® score. There is only one type of credit inquiry that counts toward your FICO® score. When you apply for a mortgage, auto loan or other credit, you authorize the lender to request a copy of your credit report. These types of inquiries, prompted by your own actions, appear on your credit report and are included in your FICO® score. * Inquiries that don't count toward your FICO® score. Your own credit report requests, credit checks made by businesses to offer you goods or services, or inquiries made by businesses with whom you already have a credit account do not count toward your FICO® score. Credit checks by prospective employers also do not count. These types of inquiries may appear on your credit report, but they are not included in your FICO® score. Your FICO® score is not affected when you check your credit. Checking your credit reports regularly to be sure they are accurate and error-free is a good idea. In fact, maintaining accurate credit reports is a part of good credit management, which can help to improve your FICO® scores over time.

It is a good idea to check your credit reports regularly even if your not using credit cards or any other form of credit. If someone has stolen your ID they could be ruining your credit without you even knowing it till it comes back to bite in the butt. For better or for worse your credit report can affect much more than if you get a loan or not.

The best idea is to check your credit report quarterly by requesting one of your reports from AnnualCreditReport.com

Many cards will also double manufacturer warranties on products purchased with them, offer car rental insurance, purchase protection against theft or damage as well as other benefits.

Not for free they won't. Any time a company incurs a cost, that cost trickles back to the consumer.

That is true. I have no doubt that they bake whatever they are paying to provide service into the fees they charge for the credit card. Of course I don't pay any of those because I don't abuse my cards. On the other hand those costs are also included in the fees they are charging businesses that accept credit cards. Which means those charges become part of the price the goods and services your paying cash for - without getting the benefit.

My wife has a few credit cards, but they're only to establish credit. She uses them to pay the bills and then I pay off the card.

The only way a credit card should be used.

Anyway, my point isn't to convince you (or anyone else) to use a credit card over cash (although I do think they are better than debit cards, especially in online use). Only that there are benefits to using a credit card responsibly to be considered. Now whether or not those benefits outweigh the risks associated with them is a personal assessment.

I had no idea that credit would affect it, so my darn insurance was almost as high as the car loan !

It shouldn't affect it. I mean it does, but I think it's wrong. Your ability to pay your bills or the frequency you purchase things isn't' directly linked to your ability to drive safely. It's another thing they use to hike a payment up because the law dictated you MUST have insurance be it liability or full coverage. Some states require full coverage irrespective of car title ownership or not. It's 'funny' how the things we're required to have cost as much and sometimes more than the things we don't need.

On some other points - I stand corrected.

It shouldn't affect it. I mean it does, but I think it's wrong. Your ability to pay your bills or the frequency you purchase things isn't' directly linked to your ability to drive safely

Actually there is a relationship. When you get down to your credit score is ranking how responsible you are with your money (or at least in making sure your debts get paid). Well if you are responsible in one area of your life then it isn't unreasonable to expect your probably responsible in other areas like your driving habits.

Think about it - lets say you know a guy with a couple DUI's, lots speeding tickets, a couple accidents under his belt, and is known to drive wrecklessly. What type of financial situation do you think he is in.

I grant you that there isn't a obvious connection. Undoubtedly there are very safe drivers who are financial wrecks and visa versa. There may be a statistical correlation between the two behaviors. Be nice to see the evidence of that. When you get down to it though a lender is betting on your behavior to be responsible and insurer is better on that same behavior.

I am hopeless financially yet lead an impeccable and very successful life apart from that. What does FDBryant3 make of that?

I do not believe there is any correlation between financial management and other life factors except that people who manage their money well tend to be either financially savvy, adept at dealing with figures, more careful in that regard than others or are just good controllers. We can't all be good at everything and so we individually have our strong points. Handling money has never been mine, no matter how good I have been with words, so I have quietly accepted it and done my best!

Does that make me less of a person than the next one?

It is always easy to judge in stereotypes because it is quicker to assess someone negatively than to get to know them and acknowledge their individuality.

I am hopeless financially yet lead an impeccable and very successful life apart from that. What does FDBryant3 make of that?

I make nothing of it. For one thing you haven't provided the information relevant in this discussion - your credit score. It is possible to have a very high credit score yet be in a very bad financial situation. If you have out of control spending, high debt, and saving/investing nothing your not doing very good financially, however long as you manage to make payments on those debts regularly your going to have a decent credit score.

Ultimately, your personal situation isn't what is relevant, neither is Tedd's, and neither is mine. What is relevant is whether or not there is a statistical correlation between people with high credit and safe driving records. Now I personally do not know if there is such a correlation. I wouldn't mind seeing the information on that but I don't really know where to look. On the other hand I'll give the insurance companies the benefit of the doubt that they have done the analysis and that is why they use credit scores as part of their evaluation (I'm being generous, but for lack of evidence counter to that it is what I going with).

Insurance is a gambling game. They are betting your not going to do something expensive, and you are betting that you are. They are going to use whatever information they can to decide whether you are a good risk or not. Will there be people who buck that analysis? Yes. That is part of the business.

It is always easy to judge in stereotypes because it is quicker to assess someone negatively than to get to know them and acknowledge their individuality.

I'm not judging anyone. I'm pointing out why an insurance company uses a credit score as part of their evaluation of a customer. While it would be nice to get to know each prospective customer individually, when you are dealing with thousands and millions of customers that isn't always possible nor for their business reliable.

I am hopeless financially yet lead an impeccable and very successful life apart from that.

By the way I don't believe your hopeless. You represent yourself to well for me to buy it. However, may I suggest my article on How To Retire Without Social Security for some advice on how to prepare for retirement as well as links to much better sources on manging money.

FDBryant3...Thanks for the tips. I will look at that when I have a moment.

As one for the record: I used to have a low credit score because of a business I had which collapsed. I have been driving for 30 years with only one accident - someone bashed my car from behind!

I know you say that there will be exceptions, but many people act as if there are no exceptions to any rules that those with the power wish to apply to others, with or without appropriate evidence. I feel strongly about such stereoypes because they are used to judge people before anything else which makes it much harder for many ordinary people like me, especially those who might have poor credit scores, to be treated fairly by the system.

I suppose as I never have enough money for myself, I don't have to worry about people stealing any! lol

lol You might just be surprised, Ms CYPRAH. If they get hold of your identity, they can try to get credit in your name, and leave the blame behind for you to deal with. All of us need to be careful, no matter what. :)

All of us need to be careful, no matter what. :)

Yes, I agree with that, Jo. We live in interesting, yet perilous, times.

Well debit cards with a MC/Visa logo typically are protected by a zero liability policy when used like a credit card (ie without a PIN). This isn't mandated by law though and you should check with your debit card issuer. That said I put my faith more in the policy that is backed by the law.

In most states, employers are entitled to fire an employee for any reason.

The employer only has a need for the social security number for someone they are actually hiring - not someone who is applying for a position.